Question to the Board
After reading Adrian, Jenn, Vavoom, and Rat's logs I get such an interesting view of how people of different relgions and from different parts of the US and the world feel about these attacks on London, England.
Why do any of you think should be done? The US pull out of Iraq? Capture of Muslim relgious leaders? Disentigration of the G8? Ignoring others plight and remaining home protecting your own country? Protect other countries that deserve it.
I would like this to be a completely open forum where as anyone can say what they feel without worry of persecution. If you would like to argue with someone argue points and don't stoop to the lowest common denominator with being ignorant to the person who said it.
Let's get it on!
posted by FantasticAlice @ 5:48 AM
17 Comments:
I never wanted us to go to Iraq, especially not under the guise of the war on terrorism. Iraq had nothing to do with the attacks in the US and we never found one single weapon of mass destruction. I definitely think we should pull out.
I am all for helping others if you can, especially when it comes to banding together to stop these terroristic acts from happening.
Unfortunately, I have no simple or magical plan to make that happen...maybe someone else does.
I'm Presbyterian; let's start a controversy over that instead.
I believe Iraq was the correct thing to do.
Whether we want to believe it or not, Iraq is a better place WITHOUT Saddam.
The motives may have become distorted, but the bottom line is a vicious, brutal and genocidal dictator was removed. If the insurgents would just leave the Iraqi people to get on with their lives, the troops would pull out. Evebtually. Nobody wants a conflict situation to last indefinitely. especially not the Coalition forces.
As for what to do? Keep on doing what is being done. Going on by living our lives as normal. The persecution of any religious group will never solve anything, especially as the Islamic people tend to be peaceful by nature at the best of times. Its the fundamentalists and extremists that are the problem. It would help if the Islamic people of the world denounced theses actions instead of keeping quiet about it, in an effort to quell the violent attacks against them.
Respect and vigilance is the key.
That AND bananas.
I actually agree with you on everything Adrian, except we had no right to attack Iraq and start a war, so we made one up. Or believed false information with no real credibility, to give my government the benefit of the doubt. There are lots of horrible dictators in lots of countries that we have not started wars with. We have not declared war on Castro yet or on the Korean dictator (forgive me, his name has flown right out of my head). I realize that they may not be as bad as Saddam, but they are still dictators and they are still not cuddly guys who love everyone in the world. Are we going after them too?
To me we are stuck in a loop there. If the insurgents would allow everyone to get on with their lives we could leave, but our being there, in my opinion makes them more likely to stick around and do cruel terrible things. Catch-22. Damned if we stay and damned if we go.
We won't touch Korea... they have "acutual" nuclear weapons and the WOULD use them.... Bush is scared of them.
First of all, I think attacking IRaq probably ended up being a good idea, because Saddam was apparently a pretty bad man to his people, etc. However, I wish our government had been more up front to us and to other countries about its motives. Instead of saying that he had weapons or was housing terrorists, just tell the truth. We didn't like him or what he was doing. Wheter or not the world views that as a good reason is it's choice, but at least we wouldn't be called liars for it.
And now comes my attitude on foreign aid, like what we are giving to Iraq in a way. I am so damned tired of the US giving all this money to help other countries and then being told that it should mind its own business and stop policing the world. My solution: No more aid outside our borders to ANYONE. Unless there's a tragedy in another country that directly involved American citizens being hurt or hurting others we stay out of it. If so, we take care of the specific problem only, and bring all Americans who want to come home back home. Pull all troops out of all areas except what is needed to adequately staff existing foreign embassies, and build no more embassies. The only way any other country gets help from us is when we buy their stuff if they want to sell it to us, or some alien takeover happens where the whole world has to band together. I guess we can participate in that. We drill our own oil reserves and use the hydrogen technology that has already been developed but has been bought by vehicle manufacturers and oil companies. They want us out, fine, we'll leave. I'm sure we'll hear cries of "Your country has so much money, why don't you use it to help the world?" Then we can gruffly reply "Weren't you the guys that just told us to mind our own business?" I'm tired of all this bullshit. Arrgghhh.
MEGAN: I concur completely. The public were mislead, but as a foreigner, I quite frankly prefer oil potentially being in (friendly)American hands rather than some sick dictator who murdered, raped and plundered from his own people.
As far as the other dictators go, I believe that somebody SHOULD get involved and do the same to them, but one step at a time. I can fully understand the will of the American public wanting withdrawl from Iraq, but it would solve nothing and would serve as a greater injustice to both the Iraqi and American people. The last thing anybody would want is for the soldiers to have died in vain. FREEDOM AT ALL COSTS. If only the rest of the world could grow some balls like America did.
Kim Jong Il (and I only know his name because of Team America- GREAT movie) is a guy that should be next to go. I lay the responsibility at South Koreas door.
And as for the United Nations? Pffft. Ive seen geriatrics with more teeth. They have failed the world by being too soft and are even weaker than water.
ZAN: I agree. The world is full of hypocrites. The world cries out for help and beg for aid, yet when somebody delivers, all they do is moan. Its like when that starving African country refused Genetically Modified food to feed its starving population. WTF?
Beggars cant be choosers.
I for one, appreciate Americas stance and admire their brave stance on Iraq and their generous financial aid to the world.
Here's a NY Times article on five ways to win back Iraq.
It's a good piece, but I don't think Karl Rove would let Bush do it.
Red: I, too, am a member of the Frozen Chosen. That's not controversial!
What is the FROZEN CHOSEN?
Presbyterian?
The poor Presbyterians - the one from Scottland tried to make a go of it in Ireland, and got the shaft from the Btitish & the Irish - the only thing they ever agreed on - kick the Presbyterians out - a know a bunch of them went to Maryland & Virginia.
As for the rest of it, I say no nuclear attacks, but drop some major bunker busters and announce a plan to continue to drop them every so many hours or days until all the locals tell the Coalition forces where the insurgents are hiding.
This is a war that will still be going on in 100 years from now. It is not a fad. Look how many innocent civilians have already died. Many more will die. That is just a plain fact.
When Truman dropped the two atomic bombs, it was more to bring the War to a quick end because the Nazis were very close to having cruise missles and jet planes that the Allies would have been powerless against. We needed the Japanese to surrender quickly so we could focus on the Nazis.
This is a similar thing I think. We need to focus on kicking their asses before we wake up and have someone dropping a nuke here in the the US. I think if the civilians knew the bombs would keep falling, they would quickly point out where everyone was hiding. They know. We cannot blend in to find them. We need locals to help.
It may sound harsh, but I think it would save many times more lives in the long run. Also, in my perspective it would save many more American lives. Drastic times call for drastic solutions.
I do not think we should have gone in either. Now that we are there, we cannot leave. It's like having a dumb ass drunk friend start a bar fight. Your friend is totally in the wrong, but now that the fight is on, you cannot back down. If you try to explain away his action, they come at you even harder. You need to kick their asses & then your friend's ass the next morning.
The ultimate reality is there will never ever be any peace. If you look at the history of the world, there never ever has been in thousands of years. It will never happen. Therefore, it is imperative to make sure you are on the winning end. That's my two cents.
Take a look at just our country's history - not even including the Iraq war.
American Revolution (1775–1783)
Total servicemembers 217,000
Battle deaths 4,435
Nonmortal woundings 6,188
War of 1812 (1812–1815)
Total servicemembers 286,730
Battle deaths 2,260
Nonmortal woundings 4,505
Indian Wars (approx. 1817–1898)
Total servicemembers 106,0001
Battle deaths 1,0001
Mexican War (1846–1848)
Total servicemembers 78,718
Battle deaths 1,733
Other deaths in service (nontheater) 11,550
Nonmortal woundings 4,152
Civil War (1861–1865)
Total servicemembers (Union) 2,213,363
Battle deaths (Union) 140,414
Other deaths in service (nontheater) (Union) 224,097
Nonmortal woundings (Union) 281,881
Total servicemembers (Conf.) 1,050,000
Battle deaths (Conf.) 74,524
Other deaths in service (nontheater) (Conf.) 59,2972
Nonmortal woundings (Conf.) unknown
Spanish-American War (1898–1902)
Total servicemembers 306,760
Battle deaths 385
Other deaths in service (nontheater) 2,061
Nonmortal woundings 1,662
World War I (1917–1918)3
Total servicemembers 4,734,991
Battle deaths 53,402
Other deaths in service (nontheater) 63,114
Nonmortal woundings 204,002
Living veterans fewer than 500
World War II (1940–1945)3
Total servicemembers 16,112,566
Battle deaths 291,557
Other deaths in service (nontheater) 113,842
Nonmortal woundings 671,846
Living veterans 4,762,0001
Korean War (1950–1953)
Total servicemembers 5,720,000
Serving in-theater 1,789,000
Battle deaths 33,741
Other deaths in service (theater) 2,827
Other deaths in service (nontheater) 17,730
Nonmortal woundings 103,284
Living veterans 3,734,0001
Vietnam War (1964–1975)
Total servicemembers 8,744,000
Serving in-theater 3,403,000
Battle deaths 47,410
Other deaths in service (theater) 10,789
Other deaths in service (nontheater) 32,000
Nonmortal woundings 153,303
Living veterans 8,295,0001
Gulf War (1990–1991)
Total servicemembers 2,183,000
Serving in-theater 665,476
Battle deaths 147
Other deaths in service (theater) 382
Other deaths in service (nontheater) 1,565
Nonmortal woundings 467
Living veterans 1,852,0001
America's Wars Total
Military service during war 42,348,460
Battle deaths 651,008
Other deaths in service (theater) 13,998
Other deaths in service (nontheater) 525,256
Nonmortal woundings 1,431,290
Living war veterans 17,578,5004
Living veterans 25,038,459
Alice: Frozen Chosen = Presbyterians. You know, pretty stoic and chilly about things.
True. I did not think we should go at all, but since we are there I want it to get done right, too. And with as little killing as possible, which I realize may be too much to ask.
Adrian: I see your point about the oil, and I prefer it in friendly hands too. And it is absolutely true that since we are there and people have died we have to see it out; I would hate to think that we completely wasted those lives. And the UN is pretty useless, and I am not a history buff but am under the impression it has been useless since its inception.
Rat: interesting statistics on the number of troops and deaths, etc for those wars...
I agree with the idea that now that we are in Iraq we need to leave them in a good position to manage themselves. Can't take away their government, blow them up and then leave them hanging.
Well, it's too late to say this now, but we should have gone in to Iraq as a big coalition instead of just us and a few other countries. Bush Sr had it right. He actually had some Muslim nations on our side so there was no way anyone could see the first Gulf War as an attack against Muslims.
As for the terrorists, hit 'em back harder.
Being from a country whose troops are involved in the war in Iraq, it's hard for me to state my thoughts about this as those that I do have are often conflicting.
That said, we're there now, right or wrong, and that's the way it's going to be for the immediate future so we should all do our best to support the troops, and do our best to not let the terrorist attacks elsewhere blight our optimism for the future.
The eradication of optimism and the creation of fear and paranoia is what these terrorists set themselves up to do... we shouldn't let them succeed.
Bush lied his ever-lovin ass off to put Saddam out of business..fucktard should be drawn and quartered for it..that might be a tad harsh but this wasn't a little white lie..i only hope that we can eventually get the hell out of there and let them kill each other over their different religious beliefs which has been going on for CENTURYS folks in all parts of the planet earth. IF there is one thing that will keep people riled up for all eternity..it is god..the belief in or lack thereof..
but with that said..i firmly believe you can not give in to terrorists, you must maintain a steadfast belief in what you are doing or the people you are trying to protect and/or free will lose hope. Is Iraq better off than when saddam was in power? depends on who you ask..the mothers might say no..the people without power or food or clean water will most likely say no..the politicians now in power in iraq will most obviously say yes..its not MY place to say if they are better off..it is my place to bring to peoples attention what i consider to be wrongdoings on behalf of an entire country who had NO voice or vote in what we did..the iraqi people..if we took all the billions and billions that we have spent in iraq and put it towards wiping out the pussy assed terriorists we might have made some headway by now..i think bush has his priorities screwed up and it pisses me off..what pisses me off more is the terrorists who keep innocent people in fear of walking out their front doors each and every day.a civil war is one thing..a small but spineless band of terrorists is entirely another thing..do i want to wipe out the terrorists who hide behind the cloak of religion? HELL YES..do i believe it will ever happen..sadly no..iraq will always and i mean always have civil unrest..as do many other countries on the planet..we can not save them from themselves..after what they did to us on 9-11 i think we should hunt them down and kill them like the bullies they are..without an ounce of remorse for any of them..no trials, no easy quick death, just an eye for an eye..they go after "soft targets" those lousy bastards..they take the easy way..they don't have the balls to go after the government or those in power..which is who they rant and rail against..but as long as they can find stupid people who believe that blowing themselves and a bus load of total strangers to hell will make the world a better place and get their stupid ass's a place in heaven..nothing will change..its very hard to fight ignorance..and its a very delicate balancing act...and so far..no one has the answers on how to do it..
DEBATING OPPORTUNITY:
I am South African. I am white. Soem guy in Arizona believes I should leave my country because I do not belong there (due to my ethnic origin) and am stealing jobs from people living insquatter camps.
Am I so wrong to want to live in the country of my birth?
Let me know at:
http://offmyblog.blogspot.com/2005/07/why-im-proudly-south-african.html
FANTASTICEALICE: I apologise for hijacking your comments here, but I HAVE to find out if there are more people out there that think like this guy.
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